VK2KRR new Power Pole interference case

[VK2KRR]

Thought I might give you all a live as it happens update of this interference issue.

I have had some interference on the radios here for a few months which I have tried to ignore hoping it would go away.
But it hasnt so on the weekend I took some action. My main concern is on 2m where at the moment the interference is about S8 at this stage when I point in that direction. About S3 on 10m with only a 5/8 vertical.

So on sunday the 3.11.07 I decided to track this down. The yagis indicated its to my south and I called a neighbour who said he was getting the lines across his TV and radio interference. So I got a 2m ssb rig into the car and headed there, about 1.5 km away in straight line. As I approaced the property there was no interference, as I got up close to the house it started and grew and grew until it got to maximum S9+10 on whip with no preamp at the pole. This house is fed of a T and is the end of the run to the pole at this house, so there is no other pole near by.

I called Country Energy on their behalf and reported the problem, they said they would send someone out during the week.

I called Dave today and he said someone from Country Energy called him on Monday and said they would be out in the next few days.

I also reported the problem tonight 7.11.07 and told them I was getting TV and radio interference. They took my daytime oh number and said someone would contact me tomorrow.

So we will see what happens and I will report back here to let you know the progress and how long this takes. Im writing everything down and the dates and times cause I have been through this before and last time went to the ombudsman. Lets hope it doesn't come to that this time.

[VK5IR]

I hope it gets soughted out for you Leigh. I'd be interested to know what happens.

Best of luck
Theo - VK5FTDM.

[VK4TIM]

Hi Leigh,

These days for cases of insulator interference, unless you're getting TV patterning, the authorities simply don't seem to care, so you're on the right track advising them of TVI, even if you're only getting radio QRM.

The other frustrating thing with insulator QRM is that it will often disappear completely during rain periods, but return when hot and dry.
Another hint for anybody finding the exact pole causing the problem, when you think you've found the pole, grab a sledge hammer and hit the pole, OK, perhaps not if it's a concrete pole, but wooden, go for it. The vibration will nearly always cause a change in the noise generated, even if only momentary. A friend of mine back in ZL used to be an RI, and that was one of his tricks, and will usually prove you've got the right pole.

Best of luck and let us know how you get on.

73, Tim VK4TIM.

[VK2KRR]

As far as I am aware power authorities are legally required to fix interference issues with radio communications service. Ive been through all this before.
I think that Owen VK1OD is very knowledgable in this area and he helped me with advice last time. There are sections of the radio communications act which deal with this type of thing. Im not sure if I still have the information from last time.

Can you make comment Owen if you read this.

[VK6ADF]

As far as I am aware power authorities are legally required to fix interference issues with radio communications service. Ive been through all this before.

A bit off topic I guess but what about the above in relationship with BPL?

Good Luck Leigh...sounds like you need a real good downpour of rain over there for more reasons than one. I have heard of the hitting the pole with a hammer trick before. A friend of mine who also is a ham suffered from interference from a particular pole over here in VK6 for many months. He ended up writing almost a tree worth of letters to get it solved and he actually worked for the power company. I think ended up having to wait for the maintenance program to spray all insulators in the area with some silicon product.

The Power Company took his complaint then just fobbed it off to a contractor to investigate who makes a report. Then nothing till another complaint then another contractor arrives to check it out.

That was over here...maybe things are different in your area. Good luck and keep the info coming. Your reports may help someone else later on.

73 Phil...VK6ADF

[VK2OMD]

As far as I am aware power authorities are legally required to fix interference issues with radio communications service. Ive been through all this before.
I think that Owen VK1OD is very knowledgable in this area and he helped me with advice last time. There are sections of the radio communications act which deal with this type of thing. Im not sure if I still have the information from last time.

Can you make comment Owen if you read this.

Leigh,

As you know from your experience, Country Energy (like most power companies) are profit focussed and in a competitive retail market, that means cost focussed so they are unlikely to spend money investigating or fixing emission problems.

The first step in getting attention is to make a compelling case that there are emissions, and to document the interference outcome. The 'interference outcome' is an impact assessment to explain in plain English language what you could do before the emissions occurred and what you can not do as a result of the emissions. Plain English language means in terms a judge could understand.

This might seem simple enough, but of all of the interference complaints that I have seen, they have failed to do so.

If you have the interest, the knowledge and capability, you could go a step further and try to make measurements of the emissions and relate the emissions to limits in the regulatory framework and more generally, a quantitative assessment of noise floor degradation which feeds into the impact assessment.

With due respect, S9 means nothing to the real world. Some RIs might go the mileage to make an inference based on nominal S meter calibration, but on VHF with an antenna of unknown gain, preamplifier of unknown gain, receiver of unknown calibration, I suggest that S9 is just ham talk. (For example, when I put a preamp in front of my TS2000 and have the TS2000 set for lowest noise figure, the S meter reads S9 on a signal that is around 45dB lower than the 50uV convention.)

As you know, I produced a computer based toolset for making field strength measurements using an ordinary SSB receiver, a known attenuator, and known antenna. Though FSM (http://www.vk1od.net/fsm/) has been mainly used at HF for BPL related investigations, it is just as relevant to VHF ambient noise and emission measurement.

Noise and noise measurement might seem a total distraction from working DX, but I would argue quite the opposite. An understanding of noise from within and without of a receiver system is central to science of weak signal working. Having said that, I can name only one amateur who could state the ambient noise level that he experienced on 144MHz weak signal working (and yes, it varied with beam heading)... goodonyer Rex.

As far as power line emissions, there is an Australian Standard that applies. I have been trying on and off over the last year to look at it at the National Library so as to extract the relevant limits and turn them into a graph of the style of http://www.vk1od.net/fsm/FSAmbientNoise.htm , but the National Library's online access to the SA collection appears permanently broken and they lack the interest or competency to fix it (another waste of taxpayer funds).

Be wary of making a case based solely or mainly on AS2344. Non compliance with AS2344 might be a trigger for action, but beware, you might not be happy if the emissions were reduced to only just comply unless the source was a long way from your station.

Owen

[VK2KRR]

Hi All and thanks for your comments Owen and Phil.

I can report some service ive never experienced before with Country Energy. Ive just got at call from Brett from Country Energy Technical enquiries Port Macquarie. Brett seemed very helpful and willing to resolve the problem.
He asked for some more information about what was happening which I told him. He has asked me if I am sure its coming from the pole and I said Im quite sure, he has requested that I isolate the power to the house of the property owner just to make sure its not coming from the house. I said can do that no worries, will try do it tonight and he asked I get back to him tomorrow with the result. Brett said if its determined to be coming from the pole he will send someone out.

So thats some good news. Hopefully they follow through with what they say. Will keep you posted.

[ZL4DK]

Hi,

I work in the power line industry in ZL and have found that over here the attitude with such problems is that if you ignore them they soon develop into a bigger problem that causes a power outage. Most companies are happy to replace fauly insulators/arrestors etc if properly located by a Radio Inspector. I don't think they would be too keen on following a possible wild goose chase with someone with an uncalibrated receiver however. I have found that sometimes the faulty component can actually be several poles away from where the signal appears strongest. Thermal cameras and/or ultrasonic detectors are good ways of narrowing down the faulty component.

Good Luck I hope you get it sorted.

[VK2KRR]

Just called the property owner and we isolated the power from the house at the fuse box.
As I suspected there was no change to the noise. But thats what they wanted me to make sure of so I did.

[VK2KRR]

Just called Brett back at CE and told him the power isolation did not change the noise. He told me he would put a job in to send staff out to attend to the problem but it could take up to 6 weeks!

[VK2KRR]

Just had another call from Debbie at Country Energy in Tumut saying that she has received the job and has sent it through to the Wagga area. Debbie advised the job would 'hopefully' be done one day next week.

[VK4QB]

Probably the ACA should be looking at a non licenced and broad band transmission approach to radio noise and charge accordingly. Hundreds of thousands of dollars I reckon would be appropriate. Watch the interference stop pronto and this would also include BPL noise.
Brian VK4QB

[VK2OMD]

Just had another call from Debbie at Country Energy in Tumut saying that she has received the job and has sent it through to the Wagga area. Debbie advised the job would 'hopefully' be done one day next week.

I have had some communication from Peter Young that is relevant to this matter.

There is an agreement between the power industry and ACMA. Under the ESAA agreement with the then DOC, power utilities have a responsibility to locate and rectify PLI in cases where interference to TV reception is evident, usually lower TV channels. If the interference is on VHF it is likely that it may also be the cause on HF as well.

There is, however, no time requirement to do this rectification work by the Utility. If after a period of a couple of months and nothing has happened
or the promised work/meeting has not occurred, then Leigh could raise the matter with the NSW equivalent to the Energy Ombudsmen (Victoria). Once the
Ombudsmen becomes involved, the Ombudsman costs are recovered from the power utility - this usually sparks them along.

All contact with the Utility should be documented. You stand a much better chance of successful outcome with the ombudsmen, indeed with any government organisation if you keep detailed records of all communication or attempted contact (date, time, who you spoke to, outline of key discussion points, commitments made (even if just to return a call), outcomes etc) with the Utility etc.

Thanks to Peter.

Owen

[VK4GHZ]

Topics like this make me appreciate the underground power distribution we have in this area.

[VK2KRR]

Hi Owen

Just FYI, the last issue I had with PLI was not rectified till I made a complaint to the Energy Ombudsman. Then things happened.

This time I am keeping times dates names of everything I do with them. As you can see most of it is written above too.

Thanks for your info from Peter Young.

[VK2KRR]

I have not heard a thing from country energy about this interference at this point in time.

It has been 9 weeks since I reported the issue now.

The noise has stopped anyway from the south but now I have a noise from the north.

I going to make a call and find out why I have not been contacted about the previous case.

[VK2KRR]

OK, made a call to my neighbour who told me that country energy did in fact attend the pole that I reported as having the problem just before Christmas. He is not to technical but apparantly they cut some surge suppressor wires or something of this nature.
As mentioned the noise has gone and been gone for a number of weeks.

I called Country Energy and they said I need to speak to their Tech Enquiries staff for supply quality but they are only there between 8am and 5pm. So I will call tomorrow.

[VK2XSO]

Interesting.
Keep us informed. I have been informed that I will be working in that area unrelated to the problem next week, but with the right kind of people and the right kind of gear. I should chuck my 2m foxhunting antenna in the back of the car, or borrow yours for a few minutes.

[VK3BPN]

I also have PLI, when present (always when the band is open) it's S7-8 on 6 and 2m regardless of beam heading. I have contacted my power supply people who sent out an “Information Package” which included a 15min video 2 booklets about identifying interference which to a radio head are a complete waste of time, I’m thinking …. your power lines are broke, come and fixem right!
So I rang the company and asked to speak to the person who looks after PLI and was told I would have to put my problem to them in writing, great! So I rang ACMA who also had a leaflet enclosed with the “Package” and this time I got to speak to the person who actually went out in the field to find the offending pole. He informed me that unfortunately Amateur Radio is not protected like TV or Radio so he was unable to help however I felt he was suggesting that maybe my AM radio reception might be effected by this problem in which case they would help; at this stage I have not pursued this further.

Cheers Peter
VK3BPN

[VK6MB]

While searching for something else I found this article -

http://www.arrl.org/qst/2006/04/hanson.pdf

73 Mike